Banner being designed, this was too cute to pass up.
One of the things I see happen frequently is people making, sharing and discussing lists that they have created for an event, game night, or tournament appearance that bears some scrutiny by their peers. The Privateer Press message boards have specific sub-sections for all of their factions to dedicate to list building and critique. I enjoy building lists as well, and certainly listening to podcasts that discuss list building theories, ideas, and the merits of the pieces and parts to each list included. With a blog like HH it’s going to be harder to get a full conversation going but it will allow me to get some of my list ideas out there and flesh out the why and what of the list, as well as if it has any merit or play test possibility whatsoever. I’ll be looking for feedback in the comments section, as well as in any of the forum posts where I link the article. And go easy on me, I am pretty simple/not that good at this game. 🙂
On the most recent episode of Lost Hemisphere Radio, local pal Tim Banky was a guest and we discussed some Legion lists as we both are enjoying some Thagrosh2 in play and intend to take him to some events. I discussed my list in broad terms but wasn’t fully sober or awake enough to remember what was in the list when we chatted, so for the first of these Army Intellection articles I thought I would go over the list and expand a bit on what and why I am thinking with the list in it’s current form.
List: Thagrosh, the Messiah – Carny Crush
Thagrosh, the Messiah (+3)
– Succubus (2)
– Scythean (9)
– Carnivean (11)
– Carnivean (11)
– Carnivean (11)
– Naga Nightlurker (5)
– Shredder (2)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd (1)
53/53 points
What every Legion opponent sees during a game…
So initially this list came about when my good buddy MasterSeck declared that the Carnivean warbeast was garbage when compared to many of the other options available to Legion. It’s cost relative to it’s apparently low MAT and RAT scores, lack of reach, and average defensive stats make it seem a bit lacklustre when compared to the many attacks of the Scythean who has Reach and a Chain Attack, the Ravagore’s long ranged AOE blasts and the sheer amount of win contained in Typhon. So cheaper Heavies give you better ranged attacks, a better pure melee warbeast with a chain attack, and a great character warbeast who can reasonably do both. You also have the Angelius who is a great anti-infantry piece and also ranged attacker with AP, so he has a spot in some lists for his versatility as well.
However, to me, there is nothing more savage, scary and monstrous than the Carnivean. He’s the original blighted horror for Legion and a staple of many Mark I lists because he was just a great warbeast. I don’t think his stock has gone down as much as some claim, and I intend to try and prove it. With a 10″ Spray, Fury 4, three base attacks in melee, Pathfinder, Eyeless Sight, Assault, Spiny Growth Animus and 30 health I just see so much potential in this awesome looking model. Yes his MAT 6 and RAT 4 are uninspiring, and his DEF 11 and ARM 18 pose little problems to most of what is being used competitively these days, but I think he can still be put to good use. Surely all those options can help earn back his points, or more, in a game?
So the three Carnivean are there to prove to MasterSeck that they can win back their points and swing a game. The Scythean is there both for his Reach, his Chain Attack: Bloodbath and for the Slaughterhouse Animus. Against a wall of Boomhowlers the plan is to charge, attack and hopefully not kill the charged model, cast the Animus for Slaughterhouse then make the second attack and trigger the Chain Attack to remove 3 or 4 models. He helps with Trollbloods and many units that have access to or are Tough. I added a Naga Nightlurker for the Wraithbane Animus, even though i haven’t used him much but I see the value in helping the Carnivean’s Spray by making it ignore any DEF or ARM spells effects on it’s targets. It also has a Spray 10 itself with a better RAT of 6, so it can help with the Spraying of Destiny that is possible in this list. It’s no Typhon sky-gone-dark-with-sprays, but it’s still gonna be nice having 5 Spray10’s on the table as an option. Plus that Critical Shadow Bind is possibly more likely to happen with a boost and Manifest Destiny from Thagrosh2. The Shredder is an auto-include for me most days, I just love the little balls of rabid hatred, and their 1pt Tenacity Animus is great with either a Warbeast or a Warlock. Heck even the Succubus goes to an Impressive DEF 15 ARM 12 with Tenacity on it, meaning she could possibly survive some POW 8 blast damage that clips her or avoids ranged attacks trying to snipe her out altogether. Not sure if there is any need to justify a Shredder, but I thought I should share why I love the little guy.
“Come on Doc, don’t get all quiet on me, how bad is it?”
For support I am very, very light in this list. A pair of Blighted Nyss Shepherd’s help manage Fury, they can heal warbeasts damaged in combat or from ranged attacks and can help if I am focusing Thagrosh in one zone and I need to force something outside of his Control area. They are a big weakness in the list, as any Fury management is going to be a big target for my opponents who are going to want to cool down my ability to use all the Fury on the table. Protecting them is going to be key, and a big part of my game plan for this list. The Succubus is there to help with Upkeeps for Thagrosh as well as get another copy of Spiny Growth or Tenacity onto something each turn. I am not too worried about her, she will do fine and can be a late game lane blocker if needs be, as well as a piece I expect will be targeted ASAP by my opponents. Mind you if they try and get at my support I am likely running roughshod over them with heavy warbeasts, but that’s beside the point.
And of course so no list discussion is complete without a look at the Warlock, let’s have a quick boo at Thagrosh, The Messiah to see what he brings to the list. I personally feel he is an extra heavy Warbeast, since at MAT 7, RAT 5 with DEF 13 and ARM 17 and 20 life he is going to be a big part of the game and can easily take a Heavy out on his own with a P+S 18 Reach Magical Weapon and a P+S 14 Claw as well as the Spray 10″. On top of that he has Dragon’s Blood to Upkeep on a leading warbeast, making it ARM 22 with Spiny growth and the centre i will build my offence around. If I need to deal with Tough it will likely be the Scythean, if not and I can Spray with impunity then it will likely be a Carnivean up front and centre. Unnatural Aggression is also a spell I can see using, as it can help both myself and my opponent with movement since the warbeast gets to move a full advance towards the nearest enemy model in my next Maintenance Phase. Ideally this gets me closer to things I want to kill on my turn, but can be used against me to force a movement in a direction I may not want to go, including backwards if an opponent cannily runs something behind the model and it becomes the closest enemy model. Manifest Destiny also plays a rather large part, as any melee attacks I make with a model in Thagrosh’s battlegroup have an additional die added to both attack and damage rolls and I get to discard the lowest. A MAT of 6 is no longer such an issue when you are hopefully rolling above a 7 or 8 on every roll because you drop whichever is the lowest die. So reliably hitting DEF 13/14 is now a thing for those poor Carnivean warbeasts.
This is the image Google returned when I searched for “Unnatural Aggression”. WHAT THE WHAT?????
Thagrosh2’s Feat is also worth considering, as it gives me the ability to really push deep if I get the chance to Alpha Strike an opponent, and lock them out of a zone or tar pit them with ARM 20 heavy’s they must deal with to gain any sort of advantage. Dragon Storm allows each warbeast in Thagrosh’s battlegroup to make a full advance and one normal melee attack so long as they are still in his Control Area and have completed their activations already that turn. And with Manifest Destiny lasting for a turn, they all gain the benefit still!! Obviously the Scythean has an advantage here, as with a 6″ move and then 2″ Reach he can get an additional 8″ of threat on the Feat turn, which could mean getting a super solo or important UA out of the picture sooner than i should have been able to. The Scythean’s total threat on the Feat turn is an impressive 11″ on his activation followed by the 8″ of the Feat, giving it a huge threat of 19″ to reach out and kill something. Assaulting Carnivean on the Feat turn gets to move 9″, spray to 19″, then move again for a total melee threat of 15.5″ with a 10″ spray in there for good measure. How can that be a bad thing?
In any case, that is some of what I am thinking with this list, and I like that it has a low model count, some fun and favourite models of mine in it, and can be used to great effect in SR 2013 from what I can tell. Have a listen to our chat on LHR and post your thoughts up here on the list, I for one intend to play it and report back to you once I have a game or two under my belt. Hopefully with pictures or a video! Tell me below how wrong I am, or what you would do differently. If I have missed something or overlooked an important aspect let me know, I’d love to get some feedback and hear what others think of this list.
May all your blades be sharp,
– NB
I love that you’re playing what you want!
I mean that is almost always what I do. I am prepared to face the consequences of my choices, but by playing what I want I find I am better learning to judge my own play style as well as having fun in the process, which to me is what this should be all about. And hey, I beat Lylyth2 pretty easily so that’s something, right?
ALL THE BEASTS. I love it.
Legion really does seem to do this very well, where I once thought other factions could do it better. But with so many decent animi, so many great warbeasts, and Warlocks that support the warbeasts as much as the infantry it’s really hard for me to not love playing the great dirty land sharks and loving it!
Full agree with the preceding two comments. Beasts are what Legion is all about, and eThags is a beast as well. (Related: I like puns). I should also note I haven’t listened to the relevant LHR yet, so I may have missed something pertinent as I’m working just off this post. That said there are a few things I think you’re a little off on.
First, the Nightlurker doesn’t have a spray, just a regular 10″ shot. Still a useful beast and you should have plenty of sprays to get the job done. Also note that Shadoe Bind is only on the bite. The ranged attack has Crit:Poison instead, which is still yummy but a different flavor.
Second, your feat turn Scythesn threat range is off. You’re counting reach at the end of its activation (6+3+2=11), then again for the feat move (6+2=8). You should only factor it in once since it doesn’t actually add any extra movement, meaning the feat turn threat is “only” 17″ (6+3+6+2). As with the Nightlurker, still plenty capable.
Moving from hard numbers to subjectivity, taking Shepherds for melee beast is a recipe for frustration. They’ll work great for the Nightlurker, should come standard with Ravagores, and will be passable for spraying Carniveans, but once the hand to hand starts they’re either far too close to the front lines to stay safe or they’re too far back to be of use. My rule of thumb for fury management is Shepherds are for range, Forsaken are for melee. While the Carnivean has a ranged attack it’s still primarily a melee beast.
The idea of charging a Scythean into Boomhowlers and getting a Slaughterhoused chain attack is a great idea but not something to count on. For it to work you’re betting that the initial target will Tough, which is a coin flip at best. You probably won’t get more than 4-5 targets in the chain attack even under the best circumstances. You can attack four times after a charge and animus anyway, so all you’re really losing out on is fury efficiency. Granted this is, potentially, a big deal.
Using Thags as a beater is a risky proposition and one I’m still coming to grips with myself. I’m leaning towards using him as a backup/second wave piece, but it’s just speculation until I get more reps in with him.
List changes? See above re:lack of eThags experience. I’d definitely find a way to add a Forsaken or two. Maybe swap a Carnivean for a Ravagore and upgrade a Shepherd. Or trade the Nightlurker for a mix of Shredders and Forsaken. The classic pot+Legionnaires combo is hard to go wrong with, especially since the Legionnaires make good use of his ARM buff. As always the best suggestion is to give it a go, see how it works, and tweak accordingly. Good luck with eThags!
Good catch on ALL my mistakes, thanks for pointing them out. 🙂
I like what you’re saying, and to be honest haven’t had the best luck with Shepherds and melee Warbeasts, so I will likely end up tweaking my list as play goes on. I hope to play a game or two this week with the list, and we’ll see how that goes.
Thanks for reading and for the feedback Adam!
So it’s been awhile and I was wondering how the eThragosh list is coming along. I’m thinking of getting into hordes and saw the piece and loved it, just was wondering how he actually is doing. And before I drop some cash for my first 25 points to 50 points was looking at a direction to take since I have never played the game.